The Alex Jones Billion $$$$ Verdict: Did The Jury Get It Right?

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Please rise. Court is now in session.

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All rise.

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I strenuously object. A legal podcast brought to you by the Pittsburgh law from a Flaherty Fardo is now in session.

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All those seeking information about the law and legal matters affecting the people of Pittsburgh

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and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, half-baked opinions and a dose of self-indulgence

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are invited to attend and participate.

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I brought the truth! You can't handle the truth!

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I object, Your Honor.

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Your Honor, I object.

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You would!

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Call the first witness.

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Hey, good morning, Bill.

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Morning.

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And just to have some fun, Mike, will you poke the bear and play Good Morning Vietnam for me?

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Good morning, Vietnam!

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Hey, now Bill, I know you love that, don't you?

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I mean, it's a thing that happened. It's a soundbite that exists.

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Bill, today, and I object, we're coming up on the 10-year anniversary of the Sandy Hook Elementary

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School shooting. How familiar are you with it?

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Yeah, I mean, pretty familiar. I followed the news more back then than I do now.

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So December 14, 2012, the town of Newton, Connecticut.

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I think it's Newtown, actually.

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Thank you. It is Newtown, Connecticut.

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But in the 10 years prior to 2012, there had been one homicide in the entire town.

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So a relatively safe town in America. Were you aware of that?

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No, no, I didn't. I didn't know it's crime statistics.

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So this 20-year-old walks into this elementary school, kills 26 people.

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Horrific. Anyway, you couch it, right?

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But the reason we're having this podcast today is there has been lawsuits, not only against the

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school for their failure to have security, but also against individuals and companies that have

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been on the airwaves saying that this never happened.

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And our goal today, when we look at the recent Alex Jones verdicts, is to discuss from a personal

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injury perspective as lawyers, whether or not the jury got it right. You with me?

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Yeah, I mean, let me note first, I object, indeed, I strenuously object to the question as couched.

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We can simply note the objection for the record. But especially on a case like this,

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it is so unique on its facts. I'm not sure the question, did the jury get it right, is sensible

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or coherent. The jury doesn't know any, and we don't know any better than the jury knows

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what the kind of emotional suffering that the plaintiffs in that case went through is worth.

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So that said, I'm happy to analyze and discuss how a verdict of that size, and of that size,

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I think we're specifically talking about the cumulative $965 million in the Connecticut case

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that was just awarded in compensatory damages. But yeah, I mean, let's talk about that and what

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the jury is considering and how you land at that sort of figure.

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Yeah. So Bill, I don't necessarily want to talk about the mass shooting itself, right?

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We're looking at this simply from a legal perspective. And there have been at least four

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different lawsuits that have dealt with just the defamation aspect. People going online or speaking

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in public forums and saying things that were harmful emotionally to other people. So by way

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of background first, there was a book written in 2019, and there was a lawsuit that followed

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that was called Nobody Died at Sandy Hook. And the gentleman who wrote the book was sued for

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defamation because they said that the young boy named Noah, his parents staged his funeral.

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They went to a trial and the jury awarded $465,000 to this family for the emotional stress.

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Subsequent to that, there have been two more lawsuits against Alex Jones and info wars

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regarding his statements, which he has made online saying this was a government conspiracy.

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And the statements aren't true. A Texas jury awarded a little bit over $4 million in

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compensatory damages and I believe $45 million in punitive damages. And then last week,

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a Connecticut jury, a hometown jury of where the incident occurred, awarded 15 plaintiffs,

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it was eight families and a first responder, just under a billion dollars. So by way of factual

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background, those are some of the lawsuits that we're looking at. You with me?

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Yeah. Yeah. A few things to kind of tweak or note. One of the things that's different between,

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say, a book publisher and Alex Jones, this isn't someone who is making comments online. He owned

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and controlled the means by which these statements were being made. So this isn't like some guy

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went on Facebook or went on someone else's platform and did this sort of defamation. This is his

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platform. Technically speaking, there were multiple lawsuits in Connecticut that then got

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consolidated into one for the purposes of trial and maybe at some earlier points too. So while

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that came out as one, in some sense, single verdict, it was really a bunch of cases by each

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of the plaintiffs that was heard simultaneously. As personal injury lawyers, the number one

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question we ask each other more than any other question is, what is the case worth? That's

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the hardest part of our job, in my opinion, is valuing physical injuries, valuing emotional

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injuries. And as part of our legal discussion today, I want to bring in not only our legal

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opinion, but I want to bring in everyday Ron. Bill, I'm excited to have on as a guest today,

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Ron Myers, you know Ron, AKA the Godfather. He's a former guest and has very intuitive insight. Is

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that an appropriate phrase, intuitive insight? I don't know what that means. He has great insight

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and he's very intuitive. But also, I think he breaks things down very simple for listeners and

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he's not a lawyer, formerly known as the Godfather, which he does not like. But let's bring Ron

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Myers, everyday Ron, we're going to get a non-lawyer opinion as to valuing some of these

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damages as well. Good morning, Ron. Thanks for the intro. It sounds like a huge demotion.

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How you doing today? Real good, real good. Everyday Ron here. Everyday Ron, today I want you to put

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your juror hat on because we're talking about how individuals value personal injury cases.

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And Bill, when we're talking about the value of cases, our own cases,

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I mean, don't you like to ask all different segments of society based on age, race, background,

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experiences? Yeah, you kind of pull the audience a little bit and see what people think it's worth.

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We've done some kind of ad hoc questionnaires that we'll send around sometimes to people to

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give us their take on what they think a case is worth, just to get out of our own heads, right?

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Because, you know, dollars and cents mean different things. So, you know, we're talking

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about dollars and cents mean different things to lawyers, to professionals, to people all over the

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world in terms of class and background and whatever else. And it's easy to lose track.

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You know, the kind of people who are filling your jury are going to be a similar cross-section.

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It's not all going to be one type of juror. And for each of them, you know, what the conversion

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rate looks like trying to go from injury to dollars is going to be different. Yeah. And I want to stay

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focused, you know, on valuing personal injury cases and specifically looking at how they value

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these damages in the Alex Jones case. But if you're looking at a personal injury case and how to

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how do juries award money, you know, I don't think anyone has said it better than John Travolta.

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A dead adult in his 20s is generally worth less than one who is middle-aged,

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a dead woman less than a dead man, a single adult less than one who's married, black less than white,

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poor less than rich. The perfect victim is a white male professional, 40 years old,

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at the height of his earning power, struck down in his prime. And the most imperfect?

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Well, in the calculus of personal injury law, a dead child is worth the least of all.

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See, I that's an opening scene from the movie, A Civil Action with John Travolta,

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which to me has better stated the reality of valuing personal injury cases than any movie

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I've seen. What does he say, Bill? He says, young is worth more than old. White is worth more than

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black. Rich is worth more than poor. Let me start with you, Bill. What's your take on Travolta's

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disparity on how we value injured plaintiffs in America?

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He is more right than he should be, I guess, is the way I would approach that, right? Like,

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the justice system is always in some kind of battle between, like, the practical realities

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of a fallen and flawed human world and what it's trying to be. Certainly, the legal system,

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the justice system is not trying to be the sort of system that values the way that the quote from

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a civil action has those things being valued. That said, the insurance companies are working

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on algorithms and math, and they're able to punch in all of these demographic factors into a case to

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assess what their exposure, what their risk is on a particular case. And so if, as a matter of fact,

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the way that these cases work out, our jury verdicts are smaller for older plaintiffs compared

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to middle of life plaintiffs or larger for white plaintiffs versus black plaintiffs, that's a thing

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that they know mathematically to be the case, even if morally, like, that's wrong. That's not how the

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system is supposed to work. And that puts the plaintiffs in a tough spot all the time of how

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much do you compromise with that reality as far as trying to attain good value for your clients

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versus raging against the injustice of that disparity and trying to push forward and seek

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a result that doesn't take into account the overall unfairness that's inherent in the system.

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So before we get to this Alex Jones verdict and the specifics, Ronnie, generally,

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what's your take on how, on that statement that Travolta says, hey, we value the best plaintiff

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in the world is a 40 year old white working male?

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Well, obviously, there's, I struggle with the white part of it, right? And I don't know how

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someone's race can come into awarding damages. And I think that's a very important point.

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I do see how someone's earning potential could come into an award or quality of life, things of

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that nature. Age, I mean, it sounds ageist, but is a 96 year old man damages awarded the same as a 26

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year old man? To me, I see that there's some award based on someone's ability or longevity.

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You see, I always looked at this as a life being a life. Bill, do you disagree? I mean, I haven't.

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I've never sat on a jury. But if someone was negligent and killed a 96 year old man versus

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killing a 20 year old person, I don't look at the value of the loss of life differently. I know,

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maybe most people would. I'm not naive that they don't. But your thoughts?

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Look, the jurors are being asked to do a virtually impossible task in a lot of these cases.

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And the things that help them in doing that task are often what we in the industry will call

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boardable damages, right? Can I produce a report that says, here is the lifetime worth of earnings

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you would have made that you now aren't going to be able to make? That number is going to be bigger

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for a younger person compared to an older person. Unfortunately, given the already existing economic

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racial disparities, that number is often going to be lower for a black plaintiff than a white

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plaintiff, which is some of why those kind of injustices get perpetuated through the system.

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I mean, yes, a life is a life, but how do you conceptualize killing someone or cutting off

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their life? And if you think of it in terms of not death itself, but the opportunity cost of lost life,

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you know, I can see an argument why a juror might say, well, yeah, this older plaintiff was probably

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only going to live for five or 10 more years. That's worth less than someone who is probably

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going to live for 40 or 50 more years. I'm not saying I necessarily agree with that. But when

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you're a juror and you're grasping for any kind of way to conceptualize what a particular loss of

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life or action is worth, you know, that's not an illogical way to try to resolve it.

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So I was thinking earlier, the highest verdict for a personal injury case in Allegheny County,

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Pittsburgh, that I've heard is $104 million. But in this case, the jury in Connecticut awarded these

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families $965 million. Now, give me a moment. The $104 million in Pittsburgh was a power company, a

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mother went out into her yard, was looking at these power lines. They took some shortcuts previously,

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the power lines fell on her and she was electrocuted in front of her husband and family. I mean,

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just about as horrific as anyone can imagine. You have a very unsympathetic defendant. And I think

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all three of us could question whether or not $104 million was even enough. But the reason we're

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having this today is why do some juries, you know, award a million or some award $100 million? And how

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do we get to $965 million? Do you see a disparity? Well, let me address a couple things there. First

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of all, let's remember this $965 million verdict is really a bunch of 90 to 180 or so million dollar

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verdicts. It's not one verdict that then all the families have to decide how to split up. This

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jury decided how much each of the plaintiffs was entitled to based upon the emotional suffering and

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the trauma and the harassment that they were subjected to, you know, over the course of their

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time from the terrible events of Sandy Hook through the present. So it's not that far out of line with

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what we saw in this one Allegheny County case you're talking about. It's just all these cases got

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kind of glommed together. Though the other thing to remember is, and then it's a really important

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distinction for our purposes in recognizing how we arrived at this verdict. The Allegheny County

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case you talk about was literally a case discussing or determining the liability and the damages for

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the loss of life. That's not what this Alex Jones verdict is, right? No one is saying Alex Jones is

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responsible for the death of the children who died. And still, you're talking about verdicts, you know,

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in excess of $100 million for each one of these kind of, you know, remaining sets of family members

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for these kids because what they went through afterwards because the conduct that they've been

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subjected to by people calling them liars and fakes has been so egregious. You know,

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Ronnie, let me ask you this. I mean, what's shocking to me is if we look at physical harm

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versus emotional harm. So in the electrocution case, somebody was actually physically harmed.

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In the Alex Jones lawsuits, what the plaintiffs are saying is that his words and his actions

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harmed them emotionally. So Ronnie, how do you just differentiate between the physical

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and emotional injuries and the fact that the emotional injuries could be more even though

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they're harder to, I guess, appreciate? Well, also, I think we have to unravel it a little more. I'm

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reading here where, you know, one of the fathers was awarded $120 million. So, you know, to Bill's

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point, you know, there was different awards for different individuals. What also I'm understanding

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is that it wasn't just emotional harm. Some of these people were harassed, were shot at, had to

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move, you know, their kids' graves were pissed on. So, you know, it was more than just like, oh,

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you're bullying me on the internet, right? Like these people were fearful for their lives because

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there's an individual who's inciting his followers to believe in something that was completely

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untrue, right, in this conspiracy. So it was more than just like, hey, you know, I called you a bad

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name, right? These people were fearful of their lives. And it's, you know, obviously, I think it's

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something totally egregious to go after these folks who had a six-year-old child die, right? Well,

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and you're in good company there, right? Obviously, the jurors thought this was really egregious too.

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Before we get to the numbers and the breakdown for the emotional harm, Bill, what about freedom

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of speech? I mean, is the standard, and I'm playing devil's advocate on something that you really

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can't play devil's advocate with. I understand that. But are we not allowed to say false things

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in society? I'm just asking. So you've, there's some really interesting questions of First Amendment

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law about whether and to what extent, in what context there is what you could, for lack of a

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better term, call a right to lie, right? And specifically, like freedom of the press, people

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who are the press, which in the weird technological world we live in is kind of a shifting notion

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that doesn't mean the same thing it meant, you know, at the time of the adoption of the First

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Amendment. But the press gets extra protection, right? Where someone else might not, a private

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citizen who isn't the press, who's engaged in conduct where he's defaming someone else.

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I think they don't really have a constitutional free speech right to say things that are known

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falsehoods. There might be a question of whether and to what extent the press should be shielded

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from liability, at least in spreading things that if not, quote unquote, known falsehoods,

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places where they're indifferent or recklessly indifferent to the truth or falsity of a particular

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statement. There's a lot of things that are kind of to be sussed out and intentioned and have to

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be weighed in this regard. There certainly isn't a broadly speaking First Amendment, either free

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speech or freedom of the press right to just spread known falsehoods. And I think you see in this case

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why that would be true. The Constitution protects in a bunch of ways. And it might, for example,

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protect criminal liability on the part of someone like Alex Jones, that we're not comfortable with

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the government making criminal laws where a prosecutor is responsible for the determination

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of whether or not a media outlet should be criminally sanctioned for speaking things that

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either they know or that turn out to be false. That creates a problem where the government is

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serving as the arbiter of truth. And that can be uncomfortable in cases where the question of what

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is truth or are less clear. Bear in mind in this Alex Jones case, the jury wasn't asked to pass

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upon whether or not what he was saying was true, right? The court had already decided, as I

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understand it, basically due to his noncompliance with a bunch of discovery requests, the court had

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already entered judgment on the liability question. The jurors walked in there being told by the court

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the things he said are false and he's responsible for the injuries that cause. Your only job is to

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figure out what those damages are worth. So we kind of moved past, to some extent, the question of

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whether or not there is a quote unquote right to lie. But, you know, I guess the answer here is this

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is one of the more complicated and kind of still unsettled areas of First Amendment law. Bad facts

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make bad law. As someone who likes a pretty robust First Amendment, I am hopeful that this case

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doesn't end up being a case that makes new law on these First Amendment grounds.

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Because I worry what the law would have to be to fully justify and allow the kind of civil prosecution

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of this level of defamation. Yeah. And so, Ronnie, by way of farther background, you know,

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in every personal injury case, there's liability and there's damages. And apparently in the Alex

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Jones cases, he was so non-compliant with answering discovery, appearing for depositions,

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that eventually the judge just, as a matter of contempt, entered a default judgment against him.

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And then once that happens, the plaintiffs win their case and then they go to a trial simply on

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itemizing the damages. But when you look at the free speech, and I mean,

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I read a New York Times article that said one in five Americans believe there is some truth to the

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government behind mass shootings. I mean, that's outrageous to me. 20% of Americans,

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I haven't seen any evidence to that. But on the other side of it, I am also an extremist on free

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speech, Bill, right? And I was in law school until they taught us the example that you can't walk

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into a movie theater and yell, fire, because it creates a public danger to everybody. Where do

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you stand on the free speech issue, Ronnie? Do we have the right to lie?

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I think you have a right to lie if you believe it. Jerry, just remember, it's not a lie if you

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believe it. It's not a lie. And that could be perhaps what Alex Jones was espousing. However,

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he admitted in court that Sandy Hook 100% happened. So he really did have to change his tune at some

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point under oath. I think what you were referring to was the Texas case, which is a different case

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where he lost $50 million or the plaintiff was awarded $50 million where he didn't provide

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anything. He was asked, I don't think he showed up for deposition. He didn't provide any discovery.

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And I think that case is still open somewhat or being appealed. In this particular case, I think

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he finally had to admit under oath that it was 100% real. So that completely contradicts what he

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would. So he knows it was a lie, right? So Bill and I are plaintiffs, personal injury lawyers.

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So from that perspective, my opinion is give each of them a billion dollars, give them $10 billion

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because you can't compensate them fairly for what the harm they've gone through. But here's the issue

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I have. One family who lost a child, the father's awarded $120 million. The mother's awarded,

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I'm making these numbers up, but it's less, $80 million. And the sister's awarded $65 million.

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How do you two decipher a jury's hearing this testimony? Maybe they're seeing somebody cry.

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Maybe it's how they act. But how do they get a $20 million in emotional damages difference

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between parents? Does that make sense to you? Well, this trial went on for weeks

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and went into great detail into the particular harassment and kind of experiences of the various

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plaintiffs. Those weren't identical. And again, remember, this isn't the case. I suspect some of

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this, you played the Travolta clip earlier, right? And in this case, what you've got is one of the

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most sympathetic sets of plaintiffs possible. This isn't valuing the life of a child where

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everything's kind of unknown. You've got adult plaintiffs who have been through the loss of a

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child, one of the worst things that you can have. And then they're also dealing with all of this

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other nonsense around it, right? And so you've got these incredibly sympathetic plaintiffs

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who are coming to you saying, it's bad enough, I had to lose my baby. Here's the other stuff

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that I've had to go through since then and how that felt and what I went through. And his comments

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are why I had to go through all that. And I give the jury a lot of credit. It would have been easy,

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not to make light of a terrible situation here, but at some point when the dollar figures get big

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enough, it's monopoly money for everyone, right? What's the difference at some point between $5

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billion or $1 billion? $100 billion. At some point, in as much as no dollar amount is going

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to undo what happened to these families anyway, the jury's got a really difficult task in trying

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to make sense, heads or tails of that. And the fact that they didn't just award everyone the same

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amount, the fact that they went through that testimony and presumably tried as best they could

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to distinguish what each family went through to decide how much that family's case was worth,

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to me is a credit to the process that they didn't just decide, $1 billion for everyone

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because I don't know what else to do. No, they really tried to do the project that they're asked

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to do. Yeah, see, I object and I may even strugulously object to that. And I don't disagree

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with the verdicts. Give them as much money as you want. But where I want to take this now is

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assume the three of us are in a jury room. And we're talking just like that jury did

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because this happens in every personal injury case. So eventually, for this father who had the

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highest of the individual awards, $120 million, they're saying it's worth $120 million, but not

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$125 million. And where did they get the $100 million anyway? Did they base it on his age and

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the number of his life expectancy and how much he's going to suffer each day? I mean, where did they

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pick this $120 million? What are they basing it off of? Guys, anyone? Bueller? Bueller?

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I mean, what are you doing? You're picking a number out of the air, right? Look, I don't know

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if there were boardable damages. If someone found a way to put there was not boardable damages.

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They were valuing the emotional suffering. And you're going to award one more money to somebody.

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Why? Because they cried harder because they were harassed in an airport that that's worth another

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$30 million. I don't like the idea that they differentiated between valuing these cases.

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This mom and dad both lost their son, but he suffered more emotionally.

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And you're going to know the compensation is not. I mean, it is in some sense for the loss of their

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son. That's why everybody got so much. But the compensation is not for the loss of their son.

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The compensation here is for the years of people calling you and harassing you and calling you a

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liar and guilty of a hoax and, you know, coming to your house and threatening you and making you

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leave. And each of them had different experiences in that regard. Someone who had to leave or move

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from their home, someone who was actually literally threatened with harm when someone else didn't.

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Those are fair differentiating. Tens of millions of dollars. Listen. Yeah, absolutely. That's what

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the compensation is. And we'll let Ronnie jump in in a second. But if you and I were plaintiffs in

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this case and you were harassed at the airport and you were emailed and you receive threatening

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letters and I just happened to overhear it having in the news once or twice, you can't tell me that

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your emotional pain from what your experience of being targeted was different than mine. You

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don't even know if my emotional pain just from a couple of news segments in theory could have been

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greater than all the conduct you receive. Do you agree with that? In theory, it could have been.

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And each of the people talked to the jury about what they went through. And in the end, the jury

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did what the jury is supposed to do, which is assess individually each one of those cases and

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decide what fair compensation for what you've been through is worth. And of course it's,

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you know, you have to draw a line somewhere. Dollars are necessarily arbitrary in combination

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with emotional harm or damage, right? But you have to draw a line somewhere. And no matter where you

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draw them, there's going to be a question. Well, why not 1 million more or why not 1 million less?

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I don't think that being paralyzed by that or alternatively throwing up your hands and just

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giving everyone the same amount is the right response to that difficulty. All right, Ronnie,

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chime in. I'm not an expert and I wasn't there, but you know, just what you can read in the

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media and to Bill's point is, you know, they were awarded based on their own experience and the

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incidents that happened to them. For example, the father, Robbie Parker's, I think is his name,

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the guy that was awarded 120 million. He was basically the first parent that came out and

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spoke like right after the incident to the media. And so there for 10 years thereafter,

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Alex Jones went after this guy, right? So I don't know what specifically happened to him

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over the course of 10 years, but I think it comes down to, I mean, this went on for a decade, right?

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And, you know, it's the point where, you know, Alex Jones would not let it go, right? He just,

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he kept his minions, his cultists or whoever the hell's following him in this state of rage,

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in this state of rage to continue to harass these poor, helpless victims. You know, I mean,

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here's a guy whose seven year old son was murdered in a horrific school shooting.

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And here's some asshole who for 10 years sends people after him. You know, I don't think a

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billion's enough. And then it goes to how much is Alex Jones worth? We don't know, right? Everyone's

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reporting, oh, he might have 165 million. We know he made 165 million from selling Hoax products for

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three years. He took 65 million out of his company in 2020 personally. So this guy might have a

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billion dollars. Maybe their worth should be 10 billion. And his refusal to turn over some of that

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information is part of why judgment was entered against him on the liability issues, right? It was

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one of the things he consistently refused to do was to provide the information necessary to allow

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someone to assess how much he was worth, how much his conscience was. So when we get back to the

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question, did they get it right? Would both of you agree with me that the jury's job is to value

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suffering? Would you agree with that? Perhaps a little oversimplified, but ballpark accurate.

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So you and I have been practicing for decades. We value suffering in other personal injury cases.

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You agree? Yes. And in the past, we've seen drunk drivers who hit somebody and the gentleman loses

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his legs and he's given 2.8 million dollars. We've seen medical malpractice errors, egregious

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malpractice errors that kill someone and they're given four million dollars. And consistently,

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the value of these suffering of the cases we've seen pales in comparison to the hundred million

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dollars. Ronnie, what would you rather have? Would you, do you think you're losing your legs

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would have been worth less than what some of these individuals went, how they suffered,

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the emotional suffering they've endured? Well, as a parent who raised children, if I felt

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threatened every day of my life and I felt fearful for my kids and I was afraid to go to the grocery

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store, I was afraid to go to church or afraid to walk out my front door and I was afraid my children

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would, you know, again, you sent your kid to school one day and he was murdered, right? And now you

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have this fear, right? You're probably so messed up psychologically, but now you have to fear for your

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other children's lives and again, perhaps move out of town or be afraid to go to the grocery store.

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If you told me I could give up my leg to prevent my family from being threatened,

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I'd probably give up my leg, right? So in terms of did the jury get it right, Ronnie? Absolutely.

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It's not enough as far as I'm concerned. They need to find out how much this guy's worth,

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where he's hiding his money, obviously, you know, he's pulled money out of there and maybe make it

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a hundred times whatever that denomination is. William? Godfather, you always understand.

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Yeah, I mean, I think the jury got this right, rightish anyway. I don't think there's an objective

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right or wrong to what the suffering's worth. The jury has more information than we did here, but I

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think it's interesting to note Ron's Ron's reaction here. And we have this issue all the time,

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right? Of separating compensatory damages where what you're supposed to value is the harm that

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people suffered as to which the net worth of Alex Jones has no bearing, right? It doesn't matter how

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much money he makes. That doesn't change what my suffering actually was. And yet that's exactly

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what every juror wants to know in a situation like this, because they are using their pulpit as a

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juror, not just to try to compensate the people who've been through this emotional harm, which

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how the heck do you do anyway? But to make a moral stand that what these people had to go through was

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so awful and so wrong and it's your fault and there's not enough money in the world to undo

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the terrible things you've done. And I'm going to throw the monetary book at you, whatever I think

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that means. And that's what the jury was doing here, right? It was assessing the underlying conduct

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of Alex Jones in spreading these lies, how horrific and unjustifiable what these families went through.

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Oh, and oh, by the way, it was also taking into account that these are, you know, families who

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sent their children away to school one day and they never came home. And the jury took all of

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that into account in trying to come up with this number. Theoretically, they're supposed to kind of

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live in a compensation only vacuum. But when there's no obvious way, right? If you crash my car,

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I can give you a blue book value and tell you that's compensation for what my car was worth.

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But when I'm subject to this, there's no actuarial table that's going to tell me what dollar for

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dollar that's worth. So all I can do is try to take into account as much information as I can

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and decide what feels fair under the circumstances. And I think the jury did that here.

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Yeah, I mean, the high verdicts that you see more come not from a compensation for suffering, but

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in an effort to punish the wrongdoer. And I think that's even in a case where they're even in a case

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where they're not finding punitive damages. And they're probably specifically told by the judge

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during jury instructions, they would be here in Pennsylvania, that their job is not to punish

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the defendant. They are they were almost certainly told that in the jury instructions in this case.

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Jurors are told that in Pennsylvania in cases where punitive damages aren't in play all the time.

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Let me ask one more question before we wrap this up. In Texas, they awarded 4.5 million

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in compensatory damages for Alex Jones. And I think it was either 45 million or 120 million

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in punitive. I saw two different things actually. But how do you to reconcile that the Texas jury

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thought that the emotional suffering for the same acts, they were very similar acts in Texas versus

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in Connecticut was only worth 4 million, but in Connecticut, it's worth 120 million.

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How do we reconcile that? How do we say one's right? Is the Texas one wrong?

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Is that for one individual suing or? Yeah, the Texas case was one person.

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That was one person. And then again, this the Sandy Hook, I think there were eight plaintiffs.

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I think there were 15 families, 15 plaintiffs. And there was an FBI agent in the Sandy Hook verdict.

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Right. Where they, you know, he was claiming that that was a stage actor also.

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So did Newtown get it right in Texas? The Connecticut jury got it right and the Texas

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jury got it wrong. I think it all goes, you know, again, what was that specific individual's

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experience like was that person in Texas, his name mentioned one time versus like say the other guy

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Parker, who for perhaps 10 years, right, you know, was mentioned 16,000 times and harassed the

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daily. Right. Or, you know, some of these people I read, you know, had literally guns shot at them

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or at their house or something like that. So again, there's I think there's different levels. So

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I don't know, you know, I just would need more detail. But again, I think for me, it was like,

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you know, back to your first amendment, you say something and it's a lie and you say it one time

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and it goes away. Right. You maybe you're punished for whatever that instance is. But when you go

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on for 10 years, knowing it's a falsehood and you're you're inciting your your followers to do

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actual harm and damage is a whole different ball of wax. I don't think that thinking of it in terms

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of, well, either one jury got it right, or the other jury got it right. And consequently, the

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other jury was wrong is a particularly fair or productive way to look at this. Right. Because

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the juries are being asked to do a fundamentally arbitrary task. And so you don't view those things

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by right or wrong. The other thing to note is, and I think one of the important differences, this

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Texas jury you're talking about, yeah, they awarded four million in compensatory and whatever the

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40 or whatever number was in punitive. The Connecticut jury wasn't asked to do punitive

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damages. So guess what they did? They kind of rolled the punitive damages into their compensatory

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award because it's the only chance they have to express their outrage. You know, well, those are

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procedural distinctions. Then did they do their job then, Bill? I mean, if but if you're following

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the judge's instructions, the judge didn't say to punish them or to be angry at the defendant. It

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said to compensate them fairly and appropriately for their emotional harm. Which is a fundamentally

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arbitrary task that you're going to need to pull from other elements of your experience and what

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you saw over the course of your time in the courtroom to make a determination of.

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So, I mean, how can you tell someone that that number is wrong? That it's too low to be wrong?

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That it's too low, that it's too high? What basis would you have for even attempting that argument?

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Because you can't say it's wrong unless you think there's a specific number that's the right answer.

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You know, and what's interesting also is I'm fairly certain that both the Texas and the

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Connecticut juries were allowed to hear something that you're not allowed in Pennsylvania. And

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that's a request by the plaintiffs of what they thought their damages were worth. It's very

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different going into a case and saying, look, I believe this father is entitled to $100 million

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because he suffered A, B, and C. But in Pennsylvania, you are not allowed to do that.

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We're not allowed to say we think the physical or emotional injury. And don't you think that really

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is a, it hurts plaintiffs and plaintiffs lawyers? Well, I think in the end, it probably net hurts

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as opposed to helps plaintiffs lawyers, but it's an important difference, right? Most states allow

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in the opening argument, in the closing argument, whatever, for the lawyer, for a plaintiff to get

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up and say, we are asking you for X dollars. Now that's a very fraught decision as far as what to

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ask for, right? Depending on the kind of case or whatever you're dealing with, if you ask for too

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much, you could end up angering the jury and getting less because they think you're being greedy.

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If you ask for too little, you know, maybe a jury would have given you $200 million, but you only

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ask for $100 million. And so that's what you get. So there's a whole kind of professional skill set

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and judgment that goes into the question of what dollar amount to ask for that you and I know, and

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never have to do because we're not allowed to ask for that in Pennsylvania. Look, I've talked to

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enough jurors and the number one answer by jurors survey said, when you ask them the value of the

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case, the number one answer always is, I don't know. So when you're left with an idea of what

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I don't know and no suggestion, that's why, and this is where my frustration with the lack of a

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woke legal system is how I'm phrasing it, is that yes, this makes sense. Give them $100 million,

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but don't kill people, maim people, have serious life-changing injuries in Pittsburgh and award

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them $3 million or $4 million. Make it consistent across the board. Fair? What you're asking for is

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a literal impossibility. All right. Let's wrap this up. Any final thoughts? Godfather, everyday

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Ron, the best juror ever. We're going to find a nickname that suits you. No, I think the same

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thing. You hear cases and you wonder what the details were and what's the value of that.

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Again, I think another question that jurors ask is what's happened in other cases, right? Not just,

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I don't know, but they're trying to understand historically how do we value this stuff.

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It's an impossibility. It really is. To me, it sounds to me, specifically with the Sandy Hook case,

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these jurors sat for, I don't know how many days or weeks, and they must have heard some super

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outrageous shit that went on, right? They were angry and their award represented their anger.

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Now you come to me and you say, I'm going to give me justice. That is not justice.

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Thank you, Ronnie. Billy? We have a jury system, which means that every trial involves the people

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who are in the jury essentially having to reinvent the wheel when it comes to deciding how much

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non-economic damages, whether that's physical pain or emotional suffering or whatever, how much those

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things are worth. No, your solution to try to get some uniformity across the board can only happen

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if it's imposed top down, legislatively or otherwise, where we just say as a matter of law,

436
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these types of injuries are worth X dollars. Well, that's just taking the damages, finding out of

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the jury's hands altogether. I don't think that's necessarily, it would be better for some plaintiffs

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and worse for others, but it's going to have the same problem. You're going to get uniformity,

439
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and what you're going to get in exchange for a hypothetical uniformity is one size fits all

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justice that can't take into account the particular facts in a particular case. We have decided as a

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society, we don't want that. We want a jury of your peers to sit and hear all of the evidence,

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use their common sense and experience, and decide what your injuries are worth. Of course, that's

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going to lead to wildly divergent outcomes based on particular juries and particular facts.

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Sometimes when you compare that, that can lead to a sense of, well, this doesn't feel like justice,

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this feels arbitrary, but the same thing is true if we have one size fits all damages. So

446
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that imperfection is with us for the long term. I agree. I think the jury mostly got it right.

447
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What I took from a legal perspective on the jury verdicts is that the factors you think should

448
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matter do, the likability of the plaintiff, do you like the plaintiff, do you dislike the defendant,

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do their actions outrage you in any way, and those are usually the basic ingredients of higher verdicts.

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So thank you, Ronnie. Thank you, William. If you've been injured in Pennsylvania,

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you have legal questions, pghfirm.com. Hope you enjoyed this episode of I object.

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00:45:17,200 --> 00:45:24,320
us at iobject at pghfirm.com. We are on Instagram. That's at i strenuously object podcast.

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For more information on any legal matters, visit our website, that is Flaherty Fardo's website at

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pghfirm.com. And until next time, some parting advice. My father taught me many things. He taught

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me keep your friends close, but your enemies close. Noah, are we adjourned? We are adjourned.

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The purpose of this podcast is a vanity project by Noah and Bill and should not be relied upon

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for legal advice. It does not constitute advice of any nature. We are not providing any services

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to anyone who is listening. Listeners acknowledge that they are not being provided advice from us

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or any of our guests. Podcast is for private, non-commercial use. And our guests and their views

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do not necessarily reflect any agency or organization or company that they work for.

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I think many of the opinions expressed don't even necessarily reflect the opinions of those people

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speaking. We don't know you. We don't represent you. Please do not rely on anything we say is

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legal advice. Thank you. My father taught me many things. He taught me keep your friends close,

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but your enemies close.

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