In this episode of Case or No Case, Noah and Bill deliberate on several items in the news, the overriding question being "Do these plaintiffs have a case?"
• Buffalo Wild Wings boneless chicken wings were found to not actually contain wing meat. Do we have a case?
• A man is declared dead by EMTs but then is found to be alive. Does he have a case? Does his temporarily grieving and then overjoyed family have a case?
• And finally, we compare two verdicts, one for the death of a college student in a hazing incident and another for medical malpractice regarding the knee of a football player, Philadelphia Eagle Chris Maragos. How do juries value a knee vs a life?
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The views expressed in this podcast are meant for entertainment and educational purposes
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only.
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We do not know what facts are true, do not claim to know the facts, and have not performed
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our own investigation.
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Allegations are just that, allegations.
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We're using the information we find in news articles and other second-hand reporting of
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these allegations to entertain and hopefully spark discussion.
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Noah and Bill's opinions of and commentary on these cases are based upon hypotheticals,
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using their extensive knowledge of the law and personal experience in the courtroom.
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Please rise, court is now in session.
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I strenuously object.
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A legal podcast brought to you by the Pittsburgh law firm of Flaherty Fardo is now in session.
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All those seeking information about the law and legal matters affecting the people of
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Pittsburgh and the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, half-baked opinions and a dose of self-indulgence
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are invited to attend and participate.
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I want the truth!
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You can't handle the truth!
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The defense strenuously objects.
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You would!
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Call the first witness.
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All right, everyone, thanks for being with us here today.
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Noah, thanks for being here today.
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It's another day in podcasting paradise, and it's the return of one of our most popular
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features here on the podcast, that is, case or no case.
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Noah, you excited?
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You ready to roll with this?
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Did you just say one of our most popular?
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I mean, have you looked at any analytics?
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I can tell you this.
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The verbal feedback I've received from the handful of listeners that I've actually talked
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to, which may or may not be friends and family, unimportant right now, definitely said, hey,
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you guys need to bring case or no case back.
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So Mike, the podcast producer here, friends and family saying your podcast is good as
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like your mother saying you're a handsome boy.
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You're a nice boy.
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But on the other hand, our Instagram does seem to be taking off one of our posts there.
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One of our reels has over 13,000 views and counting.
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Wow.
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So I highly recommend people check out the Instagram I Strenuously Object podcast.
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Great plug, Mike.
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Great work.
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What I'd like to do is move through a couple different cases that have made news recently.
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For those who haven't listened to our first case or no case episode, it is basically exactly
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what it sounds like.
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We're going to first discuss the facts, the information, the fact patterns and situations
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that we're seeing.
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And then at the end of the day, as two attorneys, we are going to render our opinions as to
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whether the facts we're discussing here give rise to a viable legal case or not.
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On the agenda today, just to kind of tease what's coming a little bit, we got a couple
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big verdicts that we're going to get around to discussing at the end.
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Spoiler alert, those are cases.
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But before that, we're going to deal with a little intrigue in the food service industry.
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But first, what I'd like to do is discuss a case where we have a man in Florida who
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was incorrectly declared dead by paramedics.
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Bring out your dead friends.
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I'm not dead.
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Twenty minutes later, was found by a sheriff's deputy to still be breathing.
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I'm not dead.
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Yeah, he says he's not dead.
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Yes, he is.
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I'm not.
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So in this case, what we're going to do is kind of call from a couple different articles
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a set of facts that we can consider.
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And look, these are in articles.
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They're allegations.
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We don't necessarily literally know the truth of this.
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But for the purposes of this exercise, let's just assume the things that the articles have
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told me and that I'm now telling you are true.
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OK, all right.
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These are allegations, right?
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No defamation suits here.
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We don't know what's true or false.
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What we do know is the story that we're hearing and the allegations that we have is you have
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a 65 year old gentleman in Florida who goes into some measure of cardiac arrest.
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His daughter's there.
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His daughter starts administering CPR.
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That goes on for a while.
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It's kind of a scary scene, right?
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He's cold to the touch.
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His lips are turning blue.
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They obviously call 911 and the paramedics arrive.
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When the paramedics arrive, they kind of take over the proceedings or one would think they
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should take over the proceedings.
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They come in and immediately tell the daughter, I'm sorry, he's gone.
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I think one of the things I read said they did spend 10 seconds kind of feeling for a
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pulse.
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The daughter tells them he was breathing and their response is, no, ma'am, I'm sorry.
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That was just gases leaving his body.
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So the professionals come in and declare this guy dead.
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They leave, right?
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They're not administering life saving care because as far as they're concerned, you know,
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it's too late for that.
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The medical examiners show up.
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There's a sheriff or sheriff's deputy in place to investigate what happened here, you know,
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kind of whatever the local procedures in Florida are after someone passes away.
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And a sheriff's deputy notices that this gentleman who's now under a like a sheet because he's
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been declared dead, they catch him breathing.
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I don't want to go to the cops.
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Twenty minutes pass between the time he's declared dead by the paramedics and the time
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this sheriff's deputy sees him breathing.
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Now they call a new ambulance.
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They bring someone, you know, a new set of paramedics in.
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They start administering care.
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They take him off to the hospital.
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He survives.
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You're not fooling anyone, you know.
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So you've got the daughter who's been told that her father's dead.
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She's literally starting to make calls to the rest of her family telling them, you know,
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that her dad passed.
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It turns out not to be true.
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He's in the hospital for weeks, but he does recover.
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Now I'll circle back a little bit to, you know, there are some allegations that there
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are some lasting, you know, deficits and physical injuries as a result of what he went through
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here.
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But I mean, he walked out of the hospital.
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Amazingly, they went from making phone calls to say dad's dead to, you know, having family
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dinner with him.
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So Noah, I put it to you.
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Case or no case.
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I put it to you, Greg.
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Isn't this an indictment of our entire American society?
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A couple things first.
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I mean, who are you asking whether there's a case for the individual who was declared
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dead or the daughter?
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I'm willing to consider both.
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I mean, you know, I'm not sure either have a case under the EMS immunity laws.
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I mean, I always worked under the assumption, at least in Pennsylvania, and I think the
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jurisdictions jurisdictions differ.
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But if they're acting in their professional capabilities as an EMS, I think they're immune
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in Pennsylvania from liability.
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I mean, if it's something grossly negligent, the courts may allow.
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But what's your thoughts on that?
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This is not a this is not a particular immunity or feature that I've that I've dealt with.
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I'm not aware of it.
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Can you tell me more?
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Yeah, I mean, I just remember years ago having a case where they were transporting someone
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out of a house and they dropped her and she broke her arm and they were immune from liability
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because they were acting.
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They were trying to help her.
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So I'm not convinced that you can sue EMS.
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But I'm looking online as we're talking because I was curious and it looks like some jurisdictions
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allow it and some don't.
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But assuming for this case or no case that we can get past, you're allowed to sue EMS.
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They're not immune.
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I think the dad does not have a case.
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The daughter has a good case.
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Well, a couple of things here.
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I am not ready to pass a full professional opinion on the question of what the exceptions
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to whatever immunity there is.
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And there is some measure of immunity from what I can see in some circumstances for EMS
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providers.
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But whether or not that immunity is going to extend to a certain level of medical negligence
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is an open question.
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If this case walks in the door here in Pennsylvania, we'd have to do the research to figure out,
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OK, what are the contours of the obligations here?
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And where is it that we can find, if any, relief from this kind of immunity?
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Assuming that you're in a jurisdiction that doesn't have that immunity or at least that
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you're or that you're in a jurisdiction where there are exceptions to that sort of immunity
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that you can fall under, it's interesting for you to take the position that you think
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the daughter has a case and the father doesn't.
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And some of that, I think, is going to really rest on the extent to which the father suffers
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actual physical injuries and consequences.
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So there are two different types of cases that one can talk about bringing here, one
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of which is a case for the negligent infliction of emotional distress, as opposed to looking
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at the EMS providers in terms of the physical injuries that they cause to someone.
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Anybody who is in a situation where they're told their father or their spouse or their
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loved one or their child is dead and that turns out to be false, they have had to undergo
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you know, this immediate, shocking emotional trauma start already onto the earliest stages
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of a grieving process unnecessarily.
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That is compensable harm, at least within certain confines, right?
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If there is a duty of care that extends to such a person and if it's foreseeable.
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There are cases in the past where they talk about other medical providers and the duty
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that you would owe to family members not to convey false information about someone being
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deceased.
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How is he, doctor?
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It looks like he's dead.
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Oh my god.
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Just to be clear, it looks like he's dead or he is dead.
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It just looks like he's dead.
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He's got like blue paint on him or something, but he's going to be fine.
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What is wrong with you?
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Precisely because your standard here ends up being, is this foreseeably the kind of
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emotional harm that no one should be forced to bear or should be expected to bear?
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To me, this lands on that, but finding places to establish duty to say that the EMS owed
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a duty not just to the ostensible patient in the room, but to his daughter is an interesting
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and open question.
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So on that point, I'm leaning case, but I don't think it's open and shut.
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So Title 35, Section 8151, simple negligence is immune.
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So in every case, there's liability and damages.
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The liability they would have to prove that EMS was grossly negligent or acted willfully
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to cause this harm.
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And I guess the question would be whether or not experts say not recognizing a pulse
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or breath was so grossly negligent.
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So I think you could get the liability, but shouldn't she be happy, Bill?
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I mean, the guy lies.
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Look, I'm sure it's a mixed bag of emotions, right?
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I'm reminded of the scene in Fight Club where they take the, spoilers for anyone who hasn't
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seen Fight Club, where they take the clerk at the convenience store out back and threaten
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his life and find out that he wants to be a veterinarian, that that's his dream, not
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working as a clerk in a convenience store.
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And then he pulls the gun away and says, okay, I'm going to be back in a year.
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If you're not on your way to being a veterinarian by then, I will kill you.
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Imagine how he feels.
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Come on, this isn't funny.
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That wasn't funny.
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What the fuck was the point of that?
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Tomorrow will be the most beautiful day of Raymond K.S.'s life.
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His breakfast will taste better than any meal you and I ever tasted.
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Look, I don't think you get to claim the credit for taking the emotional trauma away once
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you've given the emotional trauma in the first place.
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Yeah, I give her a million dollars.
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The daughter's Maxwell.
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I give her a million.
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See what Mike says.
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I do have a question that may decide whether or not this is a case.
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How often does something like this happen?
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I mean, I don't know if it's truth or urban legends, but they say that in times past,
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this sort of thing where people were thought to be dead and were not happened so often
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that there was a little bell above the grave with a string going down to the casket just
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in case they woke up and found themselves buried alive.
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They could pull on the string and the bell would ring and we would exhume them.
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If something happened that often where you needed a little bell to alert everyone, this
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might be somewhat of a common occurrence and could they be held liable for something that
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happens actually fairly often?
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I think you've seized on an important issue.
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You can't just judge these things by the result.
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If they acted properly and simply missed the signs that this person was still alive, that's
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not negligence.
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In medical malpractice cases or any professional negligence environment, ultimately the case
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has to be subjected to the review of other medical professionals who can come in and
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talk about what the medical standard of care is.
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It's not as simple as you made a misdiagnosis, in this case a diagnosis of death.
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You made a misdiagnosis, therefore you're responsible for it.
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Well, no.
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How do you know?
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How do you know there was a misdiagnosis?
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How do you know the gentleman didn't die and a few minutes later came back to life?
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I mean, it could, I suppose, be a Lazarus situation.
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I do note that the fact that the daughter said, no, no, he's breathing and was shunted
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aside gives some indication that this isn't a situation where there was no evidence confronting
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either a hypothetical court or the EMS in the moment.
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This gentleman had passed.
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00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,520
But I also want to add, I found a quote in one of the newspaper articles attributed to
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the chief of the Clearwater Fire and Rescue Department for whom the medics in question
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worked.
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00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:51,280
And as someone who's worked in a medical malpractice field for so long, I found this just the most
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amazing apology, public apology, no less, in the press that I've ever seen on this sort
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of thing.
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00:13:58,600 --> 00:14:04,040
This chief, apparently a Scott Ehlers per the article in question states, I apologize
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00:14:04,040 --> 00:14:07,660
for the actions and inactions of our crew during this incident.
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00:14:07,660 --> 00:14:12,280
We have strict policies and procedures in place that were not followed according to
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our preliminary review.
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These two did not perform to the standard of care that our citizens expect and deserve.
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He's like literally admitting the elements of medical negligence.
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00:14:25,400 --> 00:14:29,640
Now maybe they're free to do that because there's immunity in Florida that they think
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00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:33,220
mere negligence isn't something they're going to be on the hook for anyway.
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00:14:33,220 --> 00:14:38,560
Maybe that's why you've got what in our practice would be an unprecedented level of acceptance
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of responsibility by someone.
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Yeah.
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00:14:41,200 --> 00:14:42,880
You know, I think the case has value.
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00:14:42,880 --> 00:14:44,000
I would pass.
262
00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:45,500
I don't want it.
263
00:14:45,500 --> 00:14:47,540
As a lawyer, you know what?
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00:14:47,540 --> 00:14:48,540
It's probably a case.
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00:14:48,540 --> 00:14:49,540
Let somebody else see.
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00:14:49,540 --> 00:14:51,720
No, I strenuously object.
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00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:55,040
I want this case.
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00:14:55,040 --> 00:15:01,800
You know, I think this is a situation where if the facts are as bad as that apology and
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the surrounding circumstances would lead one to believe if he was so alive that a sheriff's
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deputy is able to see that he's breathing, but you're trained, you know, first responders
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are, you know, are just describing it as gas leaving the body.
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00:15:18,400 --> 00:15:19,800
You know, to me, that's a case.
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00:15:19,800 --> 00:15:23,480
And the only thing I'll add is we separated at the beginning of this, the idea of the
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daughter's case where the duty is a little bit less clear, but the damages are more obvious
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00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:35,520
from the father's case, the actual patient's case where the duty that's owed when you're
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00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:40,960
providing treatment and care to someone, you know, that duty is more obvious.
277
00:15:40,960 --> 00:15:46,480
But then the question becomes comparing the delay in treatment.
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How much worse is he because of the 20 minute delay versus whatever medical problem he was
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00:15:52,700 --> 00:15:57,120
already having anyway, if they take him immediately to the hospital and immediately provide medical
280
00:15:57,120 --> 00:16:00,000
care, he may still be in the same place he is now.
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00:16:00,000 --> 00:16:03,920
I mean, you know, the fact that he walked out of there seems like a, you know, something
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00:16:03,920 --> 00:16:05,640
of a miracle.
283
00:16:05,640 --> 00:16:10,120
And you know, it's hard to run out the hypotheticals of, hey, if they if they treated him more
284
00:16:10,120 --> 00:16:12,680
promptly, could he have reasonably expected a better result?
285
00:16:12,680 --> 00:16:14,560
Yeah, I don't like it.
286
00:16:14,560 --> 00:16:15,560
Good.
287
00:16:15,560 --> 00:16:19,140
All right, let's move on to the case number two here.
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00:16:19,140 --> 00:16:23,520
Every year I like to go to the Buffalo Wild Wings, Buffalo Wild Wings.
289
00:16:23,520 --> 00:16:25,200
You have to be here.
290
00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:29,420
Watch some NCAA tournament games, order a run of wings as they kind of slowly trickle
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00:16:29,420 --> 00:16:36,600
across my my table and, you know, watch four games at once on multiple TVs and and that
292
00:16:36,600 --> 00:16:37,880
sort of thing.
293
00:16:37,880 --> 00:16:43,440
So it was an especially appropriate time of year for me to encounter this article talking
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00:16:43,440 --> 00:16:48,120
about class action lawsuit that's been filed in Illinois against Buffalo Wild Wings.
295
00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:49,440
Noah, have you heard this case?
296
00:16:49,440 --> 00:16:51,600
Yeah, I've read a little bit about it.
297
00:16:51,600 --> 00:16:55,600
A gentleman who apparently has something of a history of being a named plaintiff in various
298
00:16:55,600 --> 00:17:02,320
consumer style class action lawsuits has in this case taken it upon himself and found
299
00:17:02,320 --> 00:17:08,320
a local attorney to represent him in filing this complaint to sue Buffalo Wild Wings because
300
00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:17,600
their boneless wings are not made from wing meat, but rather their white meat, chicken
301
00:17:17,600 --> 00:17:24,120
breast meat that's breaded and thus more akin to a chicken nugget or that sort of thing
302
00:17:24,120 --> 00:17:27,320
than what you would call a quote unquote wing.
303
00:17:27,320 --> 00:17:31,920
And I mean, it is certainly true that Buffalo Wild Wings calls their boneless wings exactly
304
00:17:31,920 --> 00:17:32,920
that.
305
00:17:32,920 --> 00:17:34,200
Boneless wings.
306
00:17:34,200 --> 00:17:40,560
They do also in other places describe them as being made from all white meat chicken.
307
00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:46,340
And I know in part because I think it's a delightful response that Buffalo Wild Wings
308
00:17:46,340 --> 00:17:55,000
made a public tweet in response to this lawsuit and while the news of the lawsuit, I suppose,
309
00:17:55,000 --> 00:17:56,800
which says it's true.
310
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,340
Our boneless wings are all white meat chicken.
311
00:17:59,340 --> 00:18:05,400
Our hamburgers contain no ham and our Buffalo wings are zero percent Buffalo.
312
00:18:05,400 --> 00:18:10,640
So, Noah, case or no case?
313
00:18:10,640 --> 00:18:18,520
Well, I mean, I'm looking at the definition of boneless wings on Wikipedia and apparently
314
00:18:18,520 --> 00:18:23,400
in the industry, boneless chicken wings are not actually wings, but rather are typically
315
00:18:23,400 --> 00:18:24,800
formed from breast meat.
316
00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:31,600
So apparently the standard industry is to call boneless wings, but use chicken breast
317
00:18:31,600 --> 00:18:32,600
meat.
318
00:18:32,600 --> 00:18:35,280
It's a dumb case.
319
00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:39,760
I guess if you first hear about it and it's a wing and it's not a wing, it's a breast.
320
00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:42,360
Okay, they're not being factually accurate.
321
00:18:42,360 --> 00:18:43,800
That might get you to liability.
322
00:18:43,800 --> 00:18:45,120
I don't think so.
323
00:18:45,120 --> 00:18:50,140
My thought is how is it even detectable to the consumer?
324
00:18:50,140 --> 00:18:52,040
Is there a difference in taste?
325
00:18:52,040 --> 00:18:54,080
Is there a difference in quality?
326
00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:56,460
Is there a difference in nutrition?
327
00:18:56,460 --> 00:19:00,360
And if there is a difference in nutrition, I doubt someone sitting at Buffalo Wild Wings
328
00:19:00,360 --> 00:19:03,240
really cares that much about that aspect of it.
329
00:19:03,240 --> 00:19:04,240
Yeah.
330
00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:07,920
I mean, I am certainly no nutrition expert.
331
00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:13,520
A few things kind of broad strokes here for those with less of a wing eating habit than
332
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:15,840
have I.
333
00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:21,760
Among the differences between the boneless wings and traditional actual made from chicken
334
00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,880
wing wings, the meat's different.
335
00:19:23,880 --> 00:19:27,760
You're talking about dark meat in the case of a wing versus chicken breast meat, white
336
00:19:27,760 --> 00:19:31,160
meat in the case of these boneless wings.
337
00:19:31,160 --> 00:19:34,960
The breading is different or all breading in and of itself is different.
338
00:19:34,960 --> 00:19:38,400
A traditional buffalo wing, you're using the skin and you're kind of cooking it on that.
339
00:19:38,400 --> 00:19:40,480
You're not breading around it.
340
00:19:40,480 --> 00:19:44,800
But this process to chicken breast meat, it doesn't have skin.
341
00:19:44,800 --> 00:19:48,020
It's a chunk of muscle as opposed to a distinct chicken part.
342
00:19:48,020 --> 00:19:51,120
And so you have to bread it to create the outside that you can then toss in the wing
343
00:19:51,120 --> 00:19:52,480
sauce and so on.
344
00:19:52,480 --> 00:19:54,040
So it's breaded.
345
00:19:54,040 --> 00:19:58,460
I'm assuming that means higher carbs, but the white meat is generally healthier than
346
00:19:58,460 --> 00:20:01,220
dark meat from a caloric perspective.
347
00:20:01,220 --> 00:20:02,920
The cost is interesting too.
348
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:09,840
For most of my life, chicken breast meat would have been more expensive than wings.
349
00:20:09,840 --> 00:20:11,560
Now that has changed around, right?
350
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,040
Nowadays based on among other things, the way in which they kind of genetically treat
351
00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:18,720
these chickens, you got, forget where I saw it.
352
00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:24,000
I think it was one of the articles about this case where, you know, they can, they can pump
353
00:20:24,000 --> 00:20:27,560
up the breast muscles of these chickens as much as they want and create these gargantuan
354
00:20:27,560 --> 00:20:28,560
chicken breasts.
355
00:20:28,560 --> 00:20:31,280
But in the end, the chickens still just have the two wings.
356
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:35,960
And so like per chicken, your ability to generate these quantities of meats have changed.
357
00:20:35,960 --> 00:20:37,680
Other things in the industry have changed.
358
00:20:37,680 --> 00:20:42,400
So some of the allegation here could be that, that Buffalo Wild Wings is pulling a bait
359
00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:46,800
and switch that benefits them economically now in a way that it didn't before.
360
00:20:46,800 --> 00:20:49,280
Cause they're providing you with what is cheaper meat.
361
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:53,000
I can't wait till they genetically modify a chicken to have eight wings.
362
00:20:53,000 --> 00:20:55,400
That's going to look amazing.
363
00:20:55,400 --> 00:21:00,580
It reminds me of the, you know, John Madden's six or eight or whatever it is, legged Turkey
364
00:21:00,580 --> 00:21:03,160
from the Thanksgiving games for all those years.
365
00:21:03,160 --> 00:21:05,880
Noah, you asked earlier what the damages are.
366
00:21:05,880 --> 00:21:11,920
This is of course a totally fair and appropriate question taking one specific case in isolation,
367
00:21:11,920 --> 00:21:12,920
right?
368
00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:15,200
You ate a piece of chicken.
369
00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:16,920
You know, you weren't poisoned by the chicken.
370
00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:21,080
You weren't allergic to something in the, in the chicken that you got.
371
00:21:21,080 --> 00:21:23,360
This is why, of course, he brought it as a class action.
372
00:21:23,360 --> 00:21:28,420
The whole idea or one of the main ideas of a class action suit is to create a civil remedy
373
00:21:28,420 --> 00:21:34,160
and relief for situations where the individual harm that each member of the class suffers
374
00:21:34,160 --> 00:21:39,120
is so small that the economic incentive to pursue the litigation doesn't exist.
375
00:21:39,120 --> 00:21:41,880
And so you, you take everyone's claims together.
376
00:21:41,880 --> 00:21:46,200
Maybe I only got bait and switched out of $7 a chicken, but if that's happened to a
377
00:21:46,200 --> 00:21:51,720
million people or 10 million people or 30 million people, now my case theoretically
378
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:52,720
gets larger.
379
00:21:52,720 --> 00:21:53,720
Yeah.
380
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:59,400
It's a real money grab by the lawyers who followed as class action lawsuit because, you
381
00:21:59,400 --> 00:22:03,560
know, these cases against the food and beverage companies, class actions specifically went
382
00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:08,280
from 18 in 2008 to 300 last year.
383
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,440
So the lawyers figured out it doesn't matter if it's a good case or not.
384
00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:14,240
Is it a case or no case?
385
00:22:14,240 --> 00:22:18,080
Legally, I guess lawyers will make money, but it's a no case to me because the only
386
00:22:18,080 --> 00:22:21,780
reason we're talking about it is because it's theater of the absurd.
387
00:22:21,780 --> 00:22:26,760
It's so unique and dumb that people are writing articles and we're talking about it on a
388
00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:27,760
podcast.
389
00:22:27,760 --> 00:22:29,200
Don't we need to see the menu?
390
00:22:29,200 --> 00:22:31,040
Was wings in quotation marks?
391
00:22:31,040 --> 00:22:35,200
Was there some kind of a disclaimer and asterisk and then down at the bottom, was there something
392
00:22:35,200 --> 00:22:38,300
on the menu that let consumers know what they were eating?
393
00:22:38,300 --> 00:22:44,720
So I think, I think the phrase all white meat chicken does appear, which requires now the
394
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:48,600
consumer to know the difference between white meat and dark meat to be able to figure out.
395
00:22:48,600 --> 00:22:52,920
But that to me, that's, that's where this case really falls apart and why I think it's
396
00:22:52,920 --> 00:22:54,080
no case.
397
00:22:54,080 --> 00:23:00,040
I think the average consumer knows that boneless chicken wings are made from breast meat.
398
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:03,320
When they hear the phrase boneless chicken wings, they don't think there's someone in
399
00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:09,080
the back pulling the bones out from the various parts of a chicken wing.
400
00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:10,560
That does not make sense.
401
00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:13,720
Ladies and gentlemen, it has nothing to do with this case.
402
00:23:13,720 --> 00:23:15,960
It does not make sense.
403
00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:20,160
And if you're not measuring this thing by the industry standard definition of the term,
404
00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:25,840
look all the time in kind of the food industry or whatever, we have phrases or terms of phrase,
405
00:23:25,840 --> 00:23:26,840
right?
406
00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,560
That's why Buffalo Wild Wings says in their tweet, I don't need to know that there's
407
00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:31,400
not dog meat in a hot dog.
408
00:23:31,400 --> 00:23:36,240
There is an expectation that as a human being walking through and living in society, that
409
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:42,240
I know these things well enough that I'm not being deceived by relatively standard phrasing
410
00:23:42,240 --> 00:23:43,400
on a menu.
411
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,080
And similarly, how many times have any of us been at a restaurant where we're not really
412
00:23:48,080 --> 00:23:52,400
sure what some of the words in a particular menu item or dish are?
413
00:23:52,400 --> 00:23:55,320
You're kind of rolling the dice on that if you're not sure.
414
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:58,840
I don't think that they're deceiving me.
415
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,340
You could argue from a contract perspective.
416
00:24:01,340 --> 00:24:02,520
We had an agreement.
417
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,120
This is what you offered me.
418
00:24:04,120 --> 00:24:08,200
This is the everyday meaning of this word and you didn't give it to me.
419
00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:12,240
But the everyday meaning of wings to people is more about the presentation.
420
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:16,560
In other words, the sauce that's on it, the things you dip it into, the celery, you get
421
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,280
a plate of pieces of meat prepared in this way.
422
00:24:20,280 --> 00:24:21,560
It's wing style.
423
00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:22,560
I think that's fair.
424
00:24:22,560 --> 00:24:24,320
That makes sense.
425
00:24:24,320 --> 00:24:28,600
Moving on to and I think we can kind of couple up a little bit these third and fourth cases,
426
00:24:28,600 --> 00:24:31,040
at least as far as our analysis.
427
00:24:31,040 --> 00:24:34,080
These are both cases because they've come to verdict.
428
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,040
We have the benefit of hindsight now.
429
00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:39,760
So just recently, there have been a couple different verdicts that I want to talk about.
430
00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:45,600
First of all, there was a hazing case, sad case, freshman in college who passed away.
431
00:24:45,600 --> 00:24:47,620
He was pledging a fraternity.
432
00:24:47,620 --> 00:24:53,760
They apparently had, I forget what they call this particular trial as part of their pledge
433
00:24:53,760 --> 00:25:01,520
process, but they basically quiz you question and answer about the fraternity's history.
434
00:25:01,520 --> 00:25:04,020
If you get questions wrong, you're made to drink.
435
00:25:04,020 --> 00:25:09,200
It's not the sort of thing that is unheard of around the world of hazing and fraternity
436
00:25:09,200 --> 00:25:10,800
hazing and so on.
437
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:17,520
In this case, the poor student in question, his blood alcohol content was like 0.495.
438
00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:20,920
He was an outrageously high BAC.
439
00:25:20,920 --> 00:25:25,000
There's an astounding quantity of alcohol to get him there.
440
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:30,240
I mean, a suit was filed against LSU where he went to school, the fraternity in question,
441
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:35,900
I'm assuming both local chapter and the national, as well as several of the students, the upperclassmen
442
00:25:35,900 --> 00:25:37,640
who were involved in the hazing.
443
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:44,080
Anyway, this went to trial and a jury in Louisiana awarded $6.1 million to the parents covering
444
00:25:44,080 --> 00:25:51,640
both the survival and a wrongful death action arising from this case.
445
00:25:51,640 --> 00:25:55,800
I note that apparently by the time it got to trial, there had been settlements with
446
00:25:55,800 --> 00:26:02,840
all the other defendants except for I think one of the students, one of the other fraternity
447
00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:04,440
members who was being sued.
448
00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:09,640
The school had already settled out, the fraternity itself had already settled out for various
449
00:26:09,640 --> 00:26:10,640
sums.
450
00:26:10,640 --> 00:26:16,240
I don't know what this $6.1 million verdict actually means as far as how they divvy that
451
00:26:16,240 --> 00:26:17,940
up.
452
00:26:17,940 --> 00:26:24,620
The articles tell me that the family asked for $25 million and got $6.1.
453
00:26:24,620 --> 00:26:28,440
When LSU settled, because it's a public school and these things end up being more public
454
00:26:28,440 --> 00:26:33,600
in those regards, their portion of the settlement was just $875,000.
455
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,240
So no, it's a case.
456
00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:42,440
The question here is, what are your thoughts about that verdict, the kind of settlement
457
00:26:42,440 --> 00:26:44,480
you're seeing there?
458
00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:47,880
And just a quick take, because I want to compare it to another case.
459
00:26:47,880 --> 00:26:49,480
It's definitely a case.
460
00:26:49,480 --> 00:26:54,600
The hazing cases over the last five, seven, even 10 years have gotten a lot of traction
461
00:26:54,600 --> 00:26:56,720
and the numbers have been really big.
462
00:26:56,720 --> 00:26:59,720
There was a big case against Penn State.
463
00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,120
There's an unknown here where the verdict was for $6.1 million, but we don't know what
464
00:27:04,120 --> 00:27:06,240
the total recovery by the family was.
465
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:12,320
When I first read that, $6.1 was really low for a good college kid with his entire life
466
00:27:12,320 --> 00:27:13,520
ahead of him.
467
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,560
The lost earning capacity alone could have been $10 million.
468
00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:22,480
So I viewed that probably as a $20 million case, $25 million case, and it's hard to put
469
00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:24,320
any number on a life.
470
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:26,720
We'll get into it more with the next case you're going to talk about.
471
00:27:26,720 --> 00:27:30,920
You just never know what these juries are going to do.
472
00:27:30,920 --> 00:27:35,520
No matter how many cases you have, how many cases you settle, how many cases you try,
473
00:27:35,520 --> 00:27:40,240
juries are a constant unknown, at least our entire careers, don't you think?
474
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:42,120
Oh yeah.
475
00:27:42,120 --> 00:27:47,160
There is always a wild card factor when it comes around to actually getting to and in
476
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:48,760
front of a jury.
477
00:27:48,760 --> 00:27:53,640
If the lawyers for the plaintiffs here knew what the verdict at an eventual trial would
478
00:27:53,640 --> 00:27:59,080
be, they obviously wouldn't have settled for $875,000 against the university, which is
479
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:05,480
presumably that or the national fraternity or your two deepest pocketed defendants here.
480
00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,180
You're not going to get that much money out of a college student or the family of a college
481
00:28:10,180 --> 00:28:14,600
student who ends up being liable on these things as well.
482
00:28:14,600 --> 00:28:15,880
It seemed low to me.
483
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:22,600
My initial impression, $6.1 million on this type of case seemed low to me.
484
00:28:22,600 --> 00:28:27,040
It is an unsurprising, I think it's an objectively low number.
485
00:28:27,040 --> 00:28:29,320
It's a lower number than I would give if I were a juror.
486
00:28:29,320 --> 00:28:33,080
It's a lower number than I think is fair when you're talking about actually extinguishing
487
00:28:33,080 --> 00:28:39,120
the life of a 19 year old young man with his whole future in front of him.
488
00:28:39,120 --> 00:28:42,280
And Noah, I'm going to point out you are completely prohibited.
489
00:28:42,280 --> 00:28:48,700
You've used your allotted share of the opening lines from a civil action, which we've played
490
00:28:48,700 --> 00:28:52,840
at least twice, if not three times in the past year on this podcast where John Travolta's
491
00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:59,360
character assesses what the perfect plaintiff is and men better than women and dead plaintiffs
492
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:01,640
versus alive plaintiffs and so on.
493
00:29:01,640 --> 00:29:04,880
Rich versus poor.
494
00:29:04,880 --> 00:29:10,200
Even better than the civil action Travolta opening was a Michael Keaton movie called
495
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:11,200
Worth.
496
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:15,160
I have neither seen nor heard of this movie.
497
00:29:15,160 --> 00:29:17,500
That really is teaching a law school class.
498
00:29:17,500 --> 00:29:20,280
How do you value the loss of life?
499
00:29:20,280 --> 00:29:21,920
I think he was the it's a true story.
500
00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:28,840
He was the gentleman who was brought in after 9 11, if I'm correct, to value the loss of
501
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,920
the people that were killed.
502
00:29:30,920 --> 00:29:37,840
And you had to go and value thousands of lives and put different numbers on them.
503
00:29:37,840 --> 00:29:44,440
The victims and their families will be compensated based on economic value loss.
504
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:46,120
That's where the formula comes in.
505
00:29:46,120 --> 00:29:51,240
80% any fewer come aboard the lawsuits that result could crater the economy.
506
00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,760
Why is it an equal payment for everybody?
507
00:29:55,760 --> 00:30:00,000
I thought it was worth just as much as anybody in a corner office.
508
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:04,240
But I wanted to compare, you know, back in February verdict out of Philadelphia where
509
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:09,440
a former Philadelphia Eagle Chris Maragos and I may be butchering his name as far as
510
00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,280
pronunciation, which is which is an interesting part of this.
511
00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:13,360
I'll get back to.
512
00:30:13,360 --> 00:30:18,840
He won an award in a medical malpractice case alleging a failure to diagnose and treat a
513
00:30:18,840 --> 00:30:23,560
torn meniscus in his knee that he alleges ended his football playing career.
514
00:30:23,560 --> 00:30:27,920
And he was awarded forty three point five million dollars.
515
00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,080
Now a few things to note here.
516
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:33,720
As I noted, I'm not exactly sure I pronounced his last name correctly.
517
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,320
I am a not insubstantial football fan.
518
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:41,860
But you know, he was a you know, a safety and a special teams captain, a special teamer.
519
00:30:41,860 --> 00:30:48,700
So I will hopefully be forgiven if my my knowledge of the Eagles prior depth chart doesn't go
520
00:30:48,700 --> 00:30:51,280
to the point that he was a household name for me.
521
00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:53,680
He was already 31 years old.
522
00:30:53,680 --> 00:31:00,520
He tore his PCL and underwent surgery on the PCL to repair it.
523
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:05,720
He alleges that at the time of that surgery, they should have also repaired a torn meniscus
524
00:31:05,720 --> 00:31:08,160
that they failed to discover at that time.
525
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:13,220
That subsequent MRIs showed this torn meniscus, but that they put him on an aggressive rehabilitation
526
00:31:13,220 --> 00:31:17,440
program that had him running and basically made that care worse.
527
00:31:17,440 --> 00:31:19,500
His knee never healed sufficiently.
528
00:31:19,500 --> 00:31:23,660
He got released by the Eagles after the end of that season and has never been able to
529
00:31:23,660 --> 00:31:25,060
play football again.
530
00:31:25,060 --> 00:31:28,180
You know, complaining he's the only dad among his friend group can't go out and play flag
531
00:31:28,180 --> 00:31:31,700
football with his kids kind of thing because his knees shot.
532
00:31:31,700 --> 00:31:34,640
Let's grant for the moment that there were defenses here.
533
00:31:34,640 --> 00:31:38,640
The doctors, the doctor who did this made the defense that at the time I did the procedure,
534
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:40,740
I didn't see any issue with the meniscus.
535
00:31:40,740 --> 00:31:45,220
They even suggested that he may have injured the meniscus subsequent to the procedure, right?
536
00:31:45,220 --> 00:31:49,660
That he was just that he was not disclosing a subsequent injury that he suffered and claiming
537
00:31:49,660 --> 00:31:51,040
they were responsible.
538
00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:56,180
The jury didn't find that credible, apparently, because they found them negligent.
539
00:31:56,180 --> 00:32:02,640
But where I want to focus here is on that that kind of eye popping $43.5 million figure.
540
00:32:02,640 --> 00:32:06,660
This isn't a quarterback or someone who was signing like the top end contracts in the
541
00:32:06,660 --> 00:32:07,660
NFL.
542
00:32:07,660 --> 00:32:09,520
He had a claim for lost wages.
543
00:32:09,520 --> 00:32:13,400
That claim for lost wages was $8.7 million.
544
00:32:13,400 --> 00:32:19,220
Still a big chunk, still a chunk that the defendants here were poking at like, you're
545
00:32:19,220 --> 00:32:20,520
already 31 years old.
546
00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:23,780
You only made $10 million in your career to date.
547
00:32:23,780 --> 00:32:27,440
Is it really reasonable to think that your career was going to last that much longer
548
00:32:27,440 --> 00:32:31,680
coming off this PCL injury that wasn't our fault anyway?
549
00:32:31,680 --> 00:32:35,240
Coming off a lifetime of playing football in the NFL and playing football your entire
550
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:37,240
life and your knees are bad.
551
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:38,240
This was a shock.
552
00:32:38,240 --> 00:32:39,320
This was a shocking verdict.
553
00:32:39,320 --> 00:32:42,040
And the question is, why was this such a big verdict?
554
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:43,440
Noah, you know this answer.
555
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:45,640
Well, I mean, well, a couple of things.
556
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:51,640
Dr. James Bradley, this Pittsburgh Steeler doctor who is globally recognized as one of
557
00:32:51,640 --> 00:32:54,200
the leading orthopedic surgeons in the world.
558
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,360
That's who the defendant was.
559
00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:02,560
And highly respected, likable guy, comes across very well, went on the stand and actually
560
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:07,480
said, if I knew everything I knew now, I still would not have done anything different.
561
00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:13,040
I mean, that's a pretty defendable case right there when you get a really likable, high-powered,
562
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:14,900
knowledgeable doctor saying that.
563
00:33:14,900 --> 00:33:19,240
But what the jury did, Bill, and I guess I can only guess, is they said, yeah, he lost
564
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,840
at least $8.7 million on his current contract.
565
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:24,000
But what if he played for three or four more years?
566
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:28,880
I mean, the best part about this case to me was that the jury deliberation was the Monday
567
00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,200
after the Eagles lost the Super Bowl.
568
00:33:31,200 --> 00:33:33,760
Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding.
569
00:33:33,760 --> 00:33:34,960
That's our answer.
570
00:33:34,960 --> 00:33:38,760
What are the chances that, you know, you never know when a trial is going to, how long it's
571
00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:39,760
going to take.
572
00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:44,200
But this must have started seven or 10 days, two weeks prior to the Super Bowl.
573
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,920
And maybe the plaintiffs lawyers were that good that they timed it.
574
00:33:46,920 --> 00:33:51,160
But when the jury went to deliberate, it was the Monday morning after the Super Bowl loss.
575
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,800
And I think he was loved in the city of Philadelphia.
576
00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:01,360
And Philadelphia, for whatever reason, is known as one of the more generous cities in
577
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,600
America for giving jury verdicts.
578
00:34:04,600 --> 00:34:07,080
It's one of the best places you can ever bring a medical malpractice.
579
00:34:07,080 --> 00:34:09,920
So I think it stars aligned.
580
00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:18,880
And they awarded seven times for a missed meniscus what the LSU student family received
581
00:34:18,880 --> 00:34:19,880
for the hazing.
582
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:21,200
It just doesn't make sense.
583
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:24,040
Yeah, a few things to circle around with and maybe kind of clean up.
584
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:28,040
My understanding is he was not on a then existing $8.7 million contract.
585
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:29,520
And in any case, it's the NFL.
586
00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:31,920
His contracts weren't guaranteed.
587
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:39,680
He was already released by the team and wasn't going to receive that money by the time that
588
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,560
the injury got worse and he was rehabbing, as I understand it.
589
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:47,040
They had an expert, an economic expert, come in and project what his expected future earnings
590
00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,080
were total, cumulatively.
591
00:34:49,080 --> 00:34:51,440
And that's the $8.7 million figure.
592
00:34:51,440 --> 00:34:54,720
So he was not expected to make that much per year or per contract.
593
00:34:54,720 --> 00:34:58,480
That's how much their experts were projecting he was going to make over the remainder of
594
00:34:58,480 --> 00:35:01,600
his career as an already 31-year-old football player.
595
00:35:01,600 --> 00:35:09,160
But to me, everything here is like the crazy circumstance that this case went to trial
596
00:35:09,160 --> 00:35:13,620
right before and during the week before and then to verdict right after the Super Bowl.
597
00:35:13,620 --> 00:35:16,200
And then the Eagles happened to make the Super Bowl.
598
00:35:16,200 --> 00:35:22,560
And so you've got jurors in Philadelphia who are subjected to Super Bowl hype or excited
599
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:23,560
for the Super Bowl.
600
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,880
Their team is in the Super Bowl.
601
00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,240
They love their team.
602
00:35:28,240 --> 00:35:29,560
Their team is successful.
603
00:35:29,560 --> 00:35:34,520
So there's all these factors going in that make him more likable because the Eagles are
604
00:35:34,520 --> 00:35:38,520
more likable, more successful because the Eagles are more successful.
605
00:35:38,520 --> 00:35:42,280
Jurors thinking this guy maybe could have been in the Super Bowl this weekend.
606
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:48,200
And instead, he's here at this trial because his career is over and we think it's these
607
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:49,520
doctors fault.
608
00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:56,160
And that's just that is a wild wild card as far as how that goes.
609
00:35:56,160 --> 00:35:59,480
When you think about high verdicts, a lot of things have to have to happen.
610
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:03,120
You really have to date the jury really have to like the plaintiff.
611
00:36:03,120 --> 00:36:07,640
It's quite possible that they did not like the defendants or their lawyers or they angered
612
00:36:07,640 --> 00:36:08,640
them somehow.
613
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:13,400
I also think whenever you get that number, it usually means that a couple of the jurors
614
00:36:13,400 --> 00:36:15,600
were even higher.
615
00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:20,320
It's usually a compromise in a jury room that somebody was at a hundred million, 75 million,
616
00:36:20,320 --> 00:36:24,160
and they came down to 43 million and others were at 10 and then maybe they met in the
617
00:36:24,160 --> 00:36:25,160
middle.
618
00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,120
They may have all just started at 40 million.
619
00:36:27,120 --> 00:36:28,640
That's possible too.
620
00:36:28,640 --> 00:36:38,560
But I feel like for you to get 12 unanimous or at least 10 out of 12 that high, wow.
621
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:40,280
It was a shocking shocking birth.
622
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,280
Yeah.
623
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:42,840
And look, you know, God bless everyone involved.
624
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,360
I'm, you know, I'm not begrudging the jury or their job there.
625
00:36:45,360 --> 00:36:50,120
I think it's interesting, you know, when you compare that award to what a Louisiana jury
626
00:36:50,120 --> 00:36:56,480
gave to a to a person who was killed, it points out just the high degree of variance that's
627
00:36:56,480 --> 00:36:58,320
present in the system.
628
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:01,600
The only other thing that may or may not have come to play, certainly after the verdict
629
00:37:01,600 --> 00:37:07,480
came out, you know, the plaintiff's attorney kind of cast it as far as these doctors who
630
00:37:07,480 --> 00:37:12,760
work for the teams, they should really be putting the patient's interest first and you
631
00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:19,400
should be doing the medical care that's necessary to heal the patient's body and not get the
632
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:22,840
patient back to football as soon as possible.
633
00:37:22,840 --> 00:37:27,840
And there's kind of an inherent conflict in team provided doctors and medical care and
634
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:31,480
facilities because the interest of the team and getting someone back on the field can
635
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,960
be rather different than the, you know, the interest of the player or his health.
636
00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:37,360
Although I note not always, right?
637
00:37:37,360 --> 00:37:41,640
Because the player just wants to get back on the field as well and worry about the long-lasting
638
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:42,640
consequences anyway.
639
00:37:42,640 --> 00:37:49,040
Didn't you feel that this case was good for our medical malpractice clients in Pennsylvania?
640
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:50,040
Absolutely.
641
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:51,760
Absolutely.
642
00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:58,880
This is the kind of verdict in almost every case and the majority of cases, the majority
643
00:37:58,880 --> 00:38:01,080
of cases settle, they don't go to verdict.
644
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,160
But what the defendants and the defendant's insurance companies are always calculating
645
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,840
when they're trying to figure out what a reasonable settlement is, is kind of what the exposure
646
00:38:09,840 --> 00:38:14,920
and in particular, like the likely and then the maximum possible exposure that their clients
647
00:38:14,920 --> 00:38:16,160
face is.
648
00:38:16,160 --> 00:38:22,580
So it's the risk of a verdict this size that makes all the cases that settle for much less
649
00:38:22,580 --> 00:38:27,160
than $43 million settle because somewhere in the back of their mind, the insurance company,
650
00:38:27,160 --> 00:38:33,360
the defendant, what they don't want is, you know, $40 million verdict is placed against
651
00:38:33,360 --> 00:38:37,240
me and the insurance company has to pay all that out because they didn't settle it for,
652
00:38:37,240 --> 00:38:40,240
you know, a couple million earlier in the process.
653
00:38:40,240 --> 00:38:42,160
Now here's the other side of the coin.
654
00:38:42,160 --> 00:38:46,480
It makes us settling a wrongful death case against a hospital.
655
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:51,920
You know, when I hear $43 million for a bad knee, how do you settle a wrongful death?
656
00:38:51,920 --> 00:38:54,920
The loss of a life for $10 million.
657
00:38:54,920 --> 00:39:01,160
You know, to me, it's going to make me reevaluate a lot of what I'm willing to recommend to
658
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:02,160
our clients.
659
00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,280
And look, in the end, these things are the client's decision and we consistently will
660
00:39:06,280 --> 00:39:09,480
tell them that as we're handling their cases here, all we can do is put the evidence in
661
00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:10,520
front of them.
662
00:39:10,520 --> 00:39:14,960
And when we're advising, you know, a plaintiff in a case, whether it's a wrongful death case
663
00:39:14,960 --> 00:39:19,640
or any case, but especially a case where someone dies, I want to show them both of these articles,
664
00:39:19,640 --> 00:39:20,640
both of these stories.
665
00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:25,960
I want them to know both things that are in play here, which is, look, sometimes you,
666
00:39:25,960 --> 00:39:30,680
you know, you hit this grand slam and you can, and you can get, you know, tens of millions
667
00:39:30,680 --> 00:39:31,880
of dollars.
668
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:37,560
But unlike most cases, when you're suing, you know, the hospital and medical practices,
669
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:39,480
that's money you're actually can receive.
670
00:39:39,480 --> 00:39:44,560
Now, they'll file appeals and settle for less than dollar for dollar everything that's in
671
00:39:44,560 --> 00:39:48,020
there, almost certainly, but you know, it's going to be a big chunk of change, but it's
672
00:39:48,020 --> 00:39:53,800
also possible that, you know, you know, what did we see out of this verdict in Louisiana?
673
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:57,760
You got a $6.1 million verdict that I think is just, you know, against an individual who's
674
00:39:57,760 --> 00:40:00,840
not going to have the resources to pay that much anyway.
675
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,780
So you've got a giant number in the verdict, but nowhere near that much money actually
676
00:40:04,780 --> 00:40:09,080
making it into, you know, the hands of the family who lost this child.
677
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:13,920
Well, young adult, but you know, they, you know, they lost a, you know, a son and a,
678
00:40:13,920 --> 00:40:16,420
you know, a brother and a friend and whatever.
679
00:40:16,420 --> 00:40:19,820
And they're seeing nowhere near these same figures.
680
00:40:19,820 --> 00:40:24,200
And every plaintiff who's confronted with the decision of how and when and at what dollar
681
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:30,260
value to settle, even a really good, you know, malpractice or personal injury case, you know,
682
00:40:30,260 --> 00:40:35,300
they need to decide how much of that risk of wildly different outcomes they're willing
683
00:40:35,300 --> 00:40:36,680
to take on.
684
00:40:36,680 --> 00:40:41,440
Am I willing to roll the dice to try to get $40 million when there's a chance the jury
685
00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:43,400
could come back and say, I like this doctor.
686
00:40:43,400 --> 00:40:46,040
I don't think this doctor did anything wrong.
687
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:47,840
Defense verdict, you get nothing.
688
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:48,840
Yeah.
689
00:40:48,840 --> 00:40:53,800
Well, and to me, it led me to believe at least in this case that the defendants weren't even
690
00:40:53,800 --> 00:40:55,880
willing to pay the $8 million.
691
00:40:55,880 --> 00:40:59,560
I mean, do you think the plaintiff's lawyer would have taken $8 million prior to going
692
00:40:59,560 --> 00:41:00,560
to trial?
693
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,760
To me, I think the offer was less than that.
694
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,480
I bet it was a couple million.
695
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:06,280
And they said, let's just roll the dice.
696
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:10,360
You know, I would think, but I would also be guessing.
697
00:41:10,360 --> 00:41:13,440
You know, it's kind of hard and dangerous to speculate.
698
00:41:13,440 --> 00:41:15,700
These things are supposed to be confidential as far as settlements.
699
00:41:15,700 --> 00:41:18,960
It's why the only one we really know out of this LSU case is for the university because
700
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:21,420
it's a public institution.
701
00:41:21,420 --> 00:41:26,920
But you don't know and can't really assume whose fault it was or if it was anyone's fault
702
00:41:26,920 --> 00:41:29,460
when a case gets to trial instead of settling.
703
00:41:29,460 --> 00:41:31,960
Maybe the defendant was offering too little.
704
00:41:31,960 --> 00:41:34,000
Maybe the plaintiff was asking too much.
705
00:41:34,000 --> 00:41:38,440
Maybe both of them are acting reasonably and just have different risk tolerances.
706
00:41:38,440 --> 00:41:43,080
It's tempting to try to reconstruct afterwards who made what decision and what was rational
707
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:44,760
based upon the outcomes.
708
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,800
But you know, I am not comfortable making anything other than the barest of speculation
709
00:41:50,800 --> 00:41:55,000
about what the actual offers and demands were in this case.
710
00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:56,000
Fair enough.
711
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:59,000
Well, that will about do it.
712
00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:00,000
Thank you, Noah.
713
00:42:00,000 --> 00:42:02,200
Thank you, listeners.
714
00:42:02,200 --> 00:42:07,480
Hopefully you enjoyed this particular version of case or no case.
715
00:42:07,480 --> 00:42:12,080
Hopefully you learned something or, you know, otherwise enjoyed the time we've spent together.
716
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:14,980
If so, please subscribe, rate and review the podcast.
717
00:42:14,980 --> 00:42:17,800
Tell your friends, tell your enemies, tell total strangers.
718
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:21,880
If you have questions for our mailing and in segment or things you'd like us to talk
719
00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:25,400
about feedback for the podcast, email us.
720
00:42:25,400 --> 00:42:31,000
That's iobject at pghfirm.com.
721
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:36,160
You can also see our Instagram, which Mike was kind enough to drop at the beginning and
722
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:37,660
I will drop again at the end.
723
00:42:37,660 --> 00:42:42,480
That Instagram is i strenuously object podcast.
724
00:42:42,480 --> 00:42:47,080
And for more information on any legal matters, any free consultations to determine whether
725
00:42:47,080 --> 00:42:50,840
or not you've got a case or no case, visit our website.
726
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:58,080
It's we're Flaherty, Fardo, Rogel and Amick and our website is pghfirm.com.
727
00:42:58,080 --> 00:42:59,840
Until next time, some parting advice.
728
00:42:59,840 --> 00:43:03,000
Jack, you think we got a case?
729
00:43:03,000 --> 00:43:04,840
Your face is my case.
730
00:43:04,840 --> 00:43:08,120
Noah, are we adjourned?
731
00:43:08,120 --> 00:43:22,320
We are adjourned.